SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to the Strength Changes Everything podcast, where we introduce you to the information, latest research, and tools that will enable you to live a strong, healthy life. On this podcast, we will also answer your questions about strength, health, and wellbeing.

I’m Amy Hudson. I own and operate three exercise coach studios. My co-hosts are Brian Saigon, co-founder and CEO of The Exercise Coach, and Dr. James Fisher, leading researcher in evidence-based strength training.

And now for today’s episode. Today’s episode is all about protein. If you are like me, you probably have seen all over maybe Instagram and social media ways to increase your protein. Let’s hit our protein goals. Protein protein protein. It’s all over the place right? But we’re gonna talk today in this episode about, especially if you are strength training, why dietary protein is important for muscle health. We’re going to talk about other benefits of consuming dietary protein. We’ll talk about the types of protein options out there and break those down. We’ll talk about what types of protein options out there and break those down. We’ll talk about what dosage of protein should we be shooting for, how much protein should we be eating in a day, a common question.

And finally, why we might want to consider focusing a little bit more on how much protein we are eating as we age. Those are the items we’re going to cover today in the podcast and more. So Dr. Fischer, how are you doing today?

Dr. Fischer I’m doing great, Amy. Really excited to talk about this and then I’m going to go and have a meal I think after this. This is definitely going to make me hungry talking about protein.

Amy Yes, hopefully a very protein-centric meal.

Dr. Fischer Absolutely, absolutely.

Amy Great. Okay, so we’re going to just dive right in with both feet. And let’s start off by making the case for our listeners, especially if you are participating in strength training, which many people who listen to this podcast do. So why is dietary protein consumption so important for our muscle health?

Yeah, this is a great question and it’s pretty the key question because many people think that if they’re engaging in strength training, they need to look at their protein consumption. And certainly one of the key things with our life, with our day-to-day life is certainly our engagement in muscle building, exercise, e.g. strength training, but also we can consider our dietary habits because they’re potentially far more meaningful. We might only engage in strength training once or twice a week, but obviously we’re consuming meals three or four times a day, every day, and so forth. The key concept really with this is that our body is constantly trying to form this homeostasis, this balance. So there is something called muscle protein synthesis and that’s basically the building or regeneration of muscle and there’s muscle protein breakdown and that’s basically the breaking down or destruction of muscle cells, of muscle protein cells. With age, we have an elevated muscle protein breakdown compared to our youth, our anabolic youth, where we have muscle protein synthesis. So it’s really important that we kind of combat that natural breakdown, that natural evolution of muscle loss by making sure that we engage in things that will elevate our muscle protein synthesis. Now the key of this podcast of course is to talk about protein consumption but it’s worth saying that the primary way to elevate muscle protein synthesis is actually by engaging in strength training. So you know it’s really important to get dietary habits right but it’s not you know get getting our dietary habits right is not going to account for not engaging in the right exercise format. So we really need to be thinking about doing strength training if we’re not, and if we are so, then we can start to think about getting our protein consumption right as well. So when we talk about protein, what we’re also, what we’re really talking about is amino acids. So many people have heard that term and they’ll have also heard the term essential and non-essential amino acids. So there are 20 amino acids, 11 of them are non-essential, they can be produced by our body, hence they’re non-essential. Nine of them are essential amino acids and they’re really the things that we look to take in, that we need to consume within our food types, within our normal dietary habits. So when we talk about muscle protein synthesis, when we talk about protein, really what we’re talking about is are we getting these nine essential amino acids?

So it’s possible to feel like we’re strength training and consuming protein, but possibly missing some of these essential amino acids? Is that possible?

Yeah, it’s absolutely possible, especially if we’re not eating, I mean I would typically advocate a whole food, less processed and you know relatively varied diet. If we’re following that principle then we are certainly consuming our essential amino acids.

Okay, so we should be paying a little bit more attention then to these amino acids. How can we do that?

Yeah, so one of the most common things that’s done, and I’m going to jump ahead a little bit here because I know we’re going to talk about types of protein, but one of the most common comparisons that’s made, and certainly has been been made recently is comparing animal-based protein to plant-based protein. And of course, there are many people listening who will be vegetarian or vegan and they’ll sort of want to stand and shout out the benefits of plant-based protein. A lot of the time, what’s actually done in these studies is they’ve looked at plant-based protein with the addition of essential amino acids, e.g. things like leucine. And actually, where the plant-based protein has been supplemented with essential amino acids, it shows to produce similar muscle protein synthesis to animal-based protein, which is typically in the form of whey protein. As long as we’re getting those essential amino acids, then we are ticking the boxes. But if we are on some form of dietary restriction, whether that’s vegan or vegetarian or other, then it might be something to consider.

Are we consuming these essential amino acids and do we maybe need to take a supplement to make sure we get the right dosage of these micronutrients?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we do have some clients at our exercise coach studios that prefer to follow more of a plant-based diet and so we do sell amino acids that they are able to take in in addition and those are very, very important for muscle building and muscle maintenance. So, what I’ve heard you say so far in this topic is as we age, we are beginning to really lose muscle mass, and that’s a natural process. When we’re very young, we build it up quicker. But as we age, we start to lose it. And even if we strength train, if we’re not getting adequate dietary protein, we’re not going to be able to support, maintain, or build muscle like we might want to. Is that fair so far?

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And I think it’s important, I’ll reiterate what I said, that the key really for me is strength training. But beyond that, there is an emphasis on dietary protein. So of course, if people listening to this podcast are not engaging in strength training, then I guess that’s okay if they’re gonna get their dietary protein right, but there’s still going to be a degree of muscle protein breakdown over the course of their lifespan. Whereas the engagement of strength training is really gonna be the boost to muscle protein synthesis to try to build and hang on to every ounce of muscle that we’ve got. And of course the protein is then going to help to do that. Got it. Okay. So then expanding a little bit more on the types of protein. So we mentioned plant-based protein. We mentioned the importance of adding in those essential amino acids if you’re primarily focusing on plant-based sources of protein. Of course, then we have animal protein and then there’s supplemental protein out there. Can you expand and talk a little bit more about those three different types of protein sources and any recommendations or advice you might have listeners in choosing how they consume protein?

Dr. Will Cullinan Yeah, absolutely. So I think once we start to think about protein consumption, we probably are also considering our total calorie intake. And it would be remiss not to say, or not to bear that in mind when we start to think about adding more protein in, because it’s not appropriate just to think, oh, I’m not getting enough protein, I should have more, therefore I’ll just have another meal. For some people that might be completely appropriate and that’s absolutely fine.

For other people that might increase their calorie intake beyond what they want to consume. And therefore supplemental protein or protein in the form of protein shakes or protein bars or things like that can be a great addition. Certainly there’s multiple different types, you know, protein yogurts and I’ve lost count of all the different protein supplements that are available now and types of product that you can consume protein through. But I think it’s wholly appropriate that if you’re trying to reach a certain protein dosage, then one of the snacks or potentially even one of the meals that we consume might be made up of a protein shake or of a protein bar, or maybe a meal might be a sandwich and then a protein bar as well, so that we can kind of really tick that protein dosage box. Philosophically, I would say that whole food is always better than supplemental food, and I don’t think that consuming supplements, you know, protein bars are never going to provide the micronutrients and the kind of nutritional content that a whole meal will do. So I think that it’s important to try to get our meals right to begin with. But I also, I’m not going to sort of take away from protein supplements. I think they can be, you know, there to really support getting that protein dosage in. But of course they don’t contain, or for the most part, they don’t contain the micronutrients that whole foods will do.

And then let’s camp out a little bit longer then on animal proteins. So if somebody is concerned about selecting high-quality sources of protein, what would be considered maybe it closer to the top of the list when it comes to animal protein sources? You know, just kind of the best of the best, and then what types of animal protein sources may not be as beneficial?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that we can start with, you know, grass-fed or free-range, you know, poultry or grass-fed beef is probably the top end of the list. You know, the less processed the food processed the meat source, the better.

And of course, I’m gonna place meat at the highest end of the protein spectrum purely because it doesn’t require any supplementation of additional amino acids. I think as we move down to the lower end of that spectrum, we’re probably looking at much more processed meats as being just generally less nutritious as a whole, but certainly lower quality proteins as well.

Okay, so if I have the option between a package of bacon and an organic chicken breast, you’re going to recommend that I go with the one organic chicken breast if I have the choice?

I am absolutely going to recommend that, but I do love the taste of bacon, so it would be a tough call.

Duly noted, duly noted. Okay, great. Do you have any other comments to make around the types of protein out there when making selections?

No, I think one of the key things that maybe this conversation might promote is that people start to just think about what they’re putting in their body and start to maybe if they’re buying food that’s in a package then they look at the package, they look at maybe where the meat has come from and they look at the nutritional content or they start to use farmers markets or butchers or things like that for their meat products.

Yes, absolutely. We have a new item that we have created for clients at Exercise Coach Studios recently about types of protein sources and grabs of protein and various types of animal protein and plant protein. So, we’re going to talk about dosage that we should be shooting for, how much protein we should be shooting for, but sometimes it’s very eye-opening to realize that, hey, in one chicken breast there’s 30 grams of protein, and it might be easier than some people think as long as they’re choosing the right types of protein sources, you know, to hit their goals. But let’s move into talking about the recommendations then in terms of how much protein we should be eating.

Yeah, so this is going to be the bit that probably I think is most important for most people and it’s probably going to be the most surprising part for most people. So I just checked before we started this call and the government recommendations in the UK certainly a 0.75 grams per kilogram of body weight and so to put that in context someone weighing 82 kilos which is 180 pounds the government recommendations are that they consume around 60 grams of protein per day.

Now I’m going to tell you categorically that’s way too low. That’s just way too low. If we go to the evidence based on the research by Dr. Stu Phillips and Brad Schoenfeld and colleagues who have looked at the amount of protein for muscle protein synthesis, we are looking at between 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram per day. So in context, using myself as an example again, at 82 kilos or 180 pounds, I’m probably looking at around 180 grams of protein per day. So you can see there’s a drastic difference.

The previous one I mentioned was 60. The actual evidence supports that this should be closer to 180. And actually in the US, there’s a really nice way of thinking about this. It’s one gram of protein per pound of body weight. So that’s what we should be shooting for through the day. Now of course, people can break that down and they can think well I truly weigh 180 pounds but my goal weight is 160 pounds so then you might use that in your calculation but ultimately it’s going to be there or thereabouts. Okay so if you’re listening and you’re a female and your ideal weight is 140 pounds your goal then according to this research is 140 pounds, your goal then, according to this research, is 140 grams of protein per day, which is way more than most people out there are consuming. It may surprise you to actually look at how many grams of protein you are consuming per day and get a feel for that and then see what that potential differential may be. You know and that’s where learning and educating yourself about grams of protein in various items for example the chicken breast that has 30 grams. I mean if I can prioritize protein first when I’m eating meals and center my meals around my protein source first to make sure I’m not too full to get that piece in that’s going to be an important tactic and I know Dr. Fisher is going to center my meals around my protein source first to make sure I’m not too full to get that piece in. That’s going to be an important tactic. And I know Dr. Fischer is going to go in a little bit more about how we can think about our meals, planning our meals in order to get the amount of dietary protein in that we’re trying to shoot for. So what would you say about meal planning when it comes to shooting for our protein goals?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that when we think about breaking down that dosage, that overall dosage, some people will hear the idea of consuming 180 grams of protein or even anywhere in that figure. That’s been quite daunting. How do you physically consume that amount of protein in a day? So really what we should be thinking about is 0.4 to 0.55 grams of protein per kilogram per meal. So what that really means is that most people should be in the region, certainly for me, it’s in the region of 32 to 44 grams of protein per meal. When we put that in context, really, that just means that the first thing I need to think about with every meal is what’s my protein source? So if, for example, I’m going to sit down and have some toast and some cereal for breakfast, there’s a big problem there because there’s very, very little protein in that as a meal itself. So I need to start to think about, okay, I need to manage that meal differently to consume more protein. Now it might be that I add a protein yogurt, it might be that I add some nuts to the, you know, porridge or oatmeal or things like that. It might be that I even have peanut butter on the toast and I start to add protein in that way or I include some dairy, some cheese, more milk, things like that.

So I think that the key really is just to break it down into manageable, pardon the pun, bite-sized pieces of where is my protein coming from in each meal. I’m not suggesting for a second that everybody wakes up in the morning and has steak and eggs, but you know, eggs can be an incredibly nutritious way to start the day. You know, it’s around seven grams of protein per egg. So you know, two to three eggs as part of a breakfast can be a really nutritious way to start the day.

Yes. And not to mention, you know, protein is very filling and satisfying and satiating, and so if you’re having 40 grams of protein in a meal, you’re really, at least speaking from my experience, not hungry to snack between that and the next time. And so, again, if weight loss is a goal, or if you find yourself feeling always hungry, maybe you’re not consuming enough dietary protein to keep you full for long enough between your meals and this alone by nature actually you know is more filling for a lower calorie count by volume of food you know if you’re doing it correctly, which is pretty encouraging. That’s exactly right and in fact protein also slows digestion. So a protein does increase our satiety, but it slows digestion. So it does leave us feeling full for longer. Once we start to think about how we include that protein into our normal daily dietary habits, I think it’s really key that we do think about sort of calorie intake as a whole. So for example, myself, if I forgive always using myself as an example, it’s nice to have these numbers. 180 grams of protein in a day, 4 kilocalories per gram of protein equates to 720 kilocalories per day, purely of protein. So if I’m now consuming around 2,500 kilocalories a day, which is what the sort of typical recommendations are, um, then I could immediately kind of lock that 720 kilocalories off and then say, where is the rest of my energy intake coming from, you know, how much of that is carbohydrates or fats, of the carbohydrates, how much of that is fruits and vegetables and so on and so forth. And I actually tend to think that once we start to count our protein, the rest of our nutritional habits often fall into place, because if we’re following guidance of getting a number of pieces of fruit and vegetable in per day, which is typically carbohydrate based, then that will then start to amount to add up to our other sort of calorie expenditure, calorie intake I should say. And then we might add some people maybe carnivore, so they maybe only consume meat and protein, but other people may consume sort of whole grains and brown rice or whole grain bread and things like that.

I remember when I first learned about the blood sugar rollercoaster and how that works. After somebody eats is, if you picture a spectrum and a steady blood sugar level would be considered to be ideal, eating a meal heavy in carbohydrates, sugar, even bread-based, without any protein to counteract that, or fiber, or vegetables, tends to, for many people, lead to a higher spike in blood sugar after that meal. So it goes way up above baseline. But then what happens after that, which is very insidious, it crashes, it crashes below that baseline. And what happens when you crash, you are actually craving more. You end up craving more sugar or more food. And it’s just so counterproductive to live on this roller coaster of blood sugar. It leads to increased fat storage, energy levels are all over the place, and protein really, really can stabilize this. When your meals are centered around protein, healthy fats, and fewer carbohydrates or less sugars, those spikes are really not going to be so big after your meals. They’re very modest which leads you to not only that satiety but then better energy levels throughout the day which feels amazing if you have not gotten used to that and I hope that that image if that’s you who lives off of maybe breads sugars or sweeter things considers how it might feel not to have those highs and lows. You’re 100% right. So when we talk about protein intake, one of the things that it can manage certainly with regards to blood sugar elevation and blood sugar crashes, blood sugar as it moves in that way, especially as blood sugar crashes, it prompts a cortisol response and it prompts systemic inflammation. So we know that there, everybody’s got the term systemic inflammation, we know that there are health implications for this, we know that there, everybody’s heard the term systemic inflammation, we know that there are health implications for this, we know that there are kind of elevated C-reactive protein levels, CRP levels, I think we’ve talked about that in the past. But this elevated cortisol is bad for us. This is something we want to avoid. And this all comes from, you know, our typical nutritional habits and our blood sugar elevated and then blood sugar crashes. And protein obviously manages that by first of all, being a key part of the diet, but as we’ve said, it slows digestion. And so it reduces this blood sugar crash and it reduces this cortisol spike. Um, and, and then obviously as a product of that, it prevents and sort of works against muscle protein breakdown. So high cortisol levels actually increase muscle protein breakdown because when we’re in a high cortisol state, we’re basically in a fight or flight state. So we’re trying to get energy from anywhere we can. So that’s actually going to prompt muscle protein breakdown. And of course, if we take protein in, then we’re combating that muscle protein breakdown anyway by increasing muscle protein synthesis. So we’re kind of modulating this stress response as a whole. But we’re also impacting our mood and of course we know our mood can be impacted by sugar highs and sugar crashes and so forth but when we consume amino acids and you know in conjunction with the amino acids that our body’s producing, amino acids are actually the building blocks of key neurotransmitters that regulate mood and motivation and mental clarity and things like that. So the benefits of protein do extend far beyond just our muscle protein synthesis. That is so amazing and very like that. So the benefits of protein do extend far beyond just muscle protein synthesis.

That is so amazing and very, very compelling. Who would have known that consuming dietary protein can help me regulate my stress response? That is amazing. Who doesn’t want that?

Awesome.

Okay, so we’ve talked about types of protein, we’ve talked about why protein consumption is important for not only muscle health but other areas of our health. We’ve talked about the dosage and how much protein we should be shooting for and given some recommendations around that. Finally, you know, last question for you is why might it be important for somebody to focus a little bit more on their dietary protein consumption as they age?

This is a great question and this links back to actually a comment by Dr. Wayne Westcott in one of our first episodes of season two of this podcast where we talked about a need for greater protein consumption as we age. And when I think of this, I think specifically of my parents and they definitely don’t consume enough protein just for absolute clarity. So don’t think that even the people behind the scenes of this podcast are perfect because they’re not. But what generally, what we generally think of or what we generally say is that our absorption is diminished so we simply can’t take in as much protein or we can’t absorb as much protein as we take in and therefore we need to take in more. It’s actually not the absorption rate. The absorption rate is relatively similar although absorption rate does drop in efficiency slightly with age anyway. But actually what happens is our muscle protein breakdown increases with age and therefore we need more protein to combat that with more muscle protein synthesis. So effectively if we think of this as like two bars, as we age, the muscle protein breakdown bar is elevating and elevating because our body is getting older, we’re in a catabolic state, excuse me, and so our body is breaking down muscle. And what we want to do is build up the other bar by taking in more protein so that we can increase that muscle protein synthesis.

DR. SMITH Interesting. Okay. Yeah, that’s, we already have enough factors working against us as we age, right? We don’t need one more, which is inadequate dietary protein, which is related to everything else that you just said. So really, in summary, what would you say to somebody listening who hasn’t paid much attention to dietary protein in the past and maybe is just starting off in a journey of strength training?

Yeah, okay. So I think, first of all, most people, I think, should be more aware of what they put in their bodies. I make the analogy to my son, if my body is a Ferrari, which it isn’t, and I don’t think of it that way, but if my buddy is a Ferrari, then I only want to put in the best fuel that I can. And of course my body isn’t Ferrari. It’s infinitely more valuable than Ferrari as is yours and everybody else that’s listening. But therefore we should be really cognizant of what we put into our body and of course if you put junk in you can’t expect it to perform at the highest levels both cognitively, both physically and both for health span and longevity. So we do need to be really mindful of the things that we put in our body and one of that one of those factors is of course the macronutrient of protein as well as the micronutrients that typically will go along with that. If people are now starting to engage in strength training, they may have aesthetic goals or health goals alongside that and of course protein will be a key part of helping to maintain muscle mass or rebuild muscle mass that we’ve lost with age. So I think it’s really essential that people, you know, sort of engage in this kind of mindset with their daily, with their meal dosage and their daily dosage. There’s one other factor I should have mentioned earlier, which I think might be a buzz for many people, and that’s actually the protein has a thermogenic effect, or it has a higher thermogenic effect than consuming fats and carbohydrates. Now what that means is that for our body to absorb a gram of protein, it has to burn more calories than it does to absorb a gram of fat or a gram of carbohydrates. So if you have a protein-rich meal, your body is burning more calories in absorbing that protein. So we have the benefit of elevated muscle protein synthesis, but we also have the benefit of the fact that we’re burning more calories just to absorb that protein. So, and I know a lot of people will be listening to this thinking about maybe their waistline or thinking about their weight loss goals or their fat loss goals. And of course, I think it’s really important to recognize that actually protein is a key part of that. We’ve talked about satiety but the thermogenic effect is also really important. Folks you heard it here first from Dr. Fisher. You cannot overstate all of the positive benefits of protein consumption. Mic drop moment about for me about the bombshell revelation that your body actually burns more calories breaking down protein than something simpler. So that’s awesome news! I’m so inspired. Yeah, what am I going gonna go eat after this episode? Maybe like salmon salmon and I don’t know Something like that lots and lots of protein. Well, thank you for breaking this down. Yeah, I would

Most people are way under muscled when they first come to us and get started, which is natural, right, if you haven’t strength trained in many years or ever. And so if you want to build muscle mass and it or even maintain what you have, especially as you get older, don’t spin your wheels by working hard at a strength training studio and not getting anywhere close to adequate dietary protein. Consider what you can do today to get adequate, high-quality dietary protein in so you can feel and function your best. Thanks for being here with us today. We will see you next time. Hope you remember, strength changes everything.

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please share it with a friend. You can submit a question or connect with the show at strengthchangeseverything.com. Join us next week for another episode and be sure to follow the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss another episode. YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss another episode. Here’s to you and your best health.